Dialogue on Other Subjects
August 9, 2007 - Instead of going for the proof texts in the challenge, Rhett has decided to issue a counter-challenge of his own. Well, since I'm the one that presented it to them, I think it only fair that I answer their proofs as well. In Rhett's own words, "In fact, I intend to show solid proof that a true Christian cannot forfeit the gift of Eternal Life." Well, the table's his, let's see what he's got.
"But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you. My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand. I and My Father are one.”
Rhett comments,
Did you get that? Did you see what Jesus plainly said?
Yep.
It reads very "Calvinistic", eh?
No more than the last few dozen times I've read it.
His Sheep hear His voice, they follow Him, they are given Eternal (not temporary) Life, and "they shall NEVER PERISH." Neither can anyone snatch them out of His or His Father's hand!
Ah yes, in the words I imagine Homestar Runner would use, "Oh my! Thtandawd Cawvinist Pwoof Texts! How intimitating!" Rhett continues,
This passage is crystal clear. TRUE Christians (Christ's sheep) will never perish (underline the word NEVER in your Bible!). Christ, with His own words, totally overthrows any possibility of the the true believer losing his/her Salvation. If no other passage in the Bible said a single solitary thing about the security of the Christian, this one passage alone is enough for us to contend for the doctrine of Perseverance forever and ever.
Rhett then quotes from John 6:35-40,
Jesus said to them, "I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me shall not hunger, and whoever believes in me shall never thirst. But I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe. All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day."
and asserts,
There's that word NEVER again!!! If Jesus himself says that all the Father gives to Him will come to Him, and those who come to Him will NEVER be cast out. How can anyone dispute that? Can Christ lie? Can the Good Shepherd lose any of His Sheep? It doesn't appear to me that Jesus believed any such thing! If Mr. Thibodaux's interpretation is correct, then Christ has lied to us in these two passages. However, because Christ never lied, and because there are no contradictions in Scripture -and no duplicity within the Godhead- I have to conclude that the passages Mr. Thibodaux has presented against us cannot possibly support his position. Whatever the passages do teach, it cannot possibly be that a true Christian can forfeit the gift of Eternal life.
He then makes the very kind offer of sending me a free copy of a book or video pushing the Calvinist position. Well, decent challenge, if not a bit overused. I'll start with John 6. Rhett's fundamental misunderstanding is that all covenants of God are taken to be conditional on those in it remaining in Him, with the Bible providing adequate counter-examples of people who did not. Scripture very often makes powerful promises of comfort and protection with the understanding that one must abide for them to apply; sometimes the conditions and exceptions are only implied, other times they are stated plainly. Let us consider those who partake of Christ, to eat of Christ's body and drink of His blood in the truest sense is not a wafer and wine in a church, but to believe on Him. Now if one believes on Him, will he never thirst again? Definitely -- with the understood fact that they continue in Him. Has anyone ever partaken and been lost? To be sure. Take a look at 1 Corinthians 10:1-5,
Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; And did all eat the same spiritual meat; And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ. But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness.
They did indeed drink of Christ, yet they later despised His grace and goodness and tempted the Holy One. The scripture makes it clear that those who rebelled not only failed to enter the promised land, but fell short of the promise of eternal rest as well (as I've noted in Hebrews 3 & 4). The promise of eternal life was just as sure then as it is now, and many of them in Israel did partake in it, yet despite the assurance that all who drink of Him will never thirst (John 4:14, 6:35, above), yet these who did so fell and were lost because they did not abide in Christ, for the promise that they will never thirst is only for those who abide. This is no surprise since Christ Himself warned against not remaining in Him.
"Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in Me. I am the vine, ye [are] the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without Me ye can do nothing. If a man abide not in Me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast [them] into the fire, and they are burned." (John 15:4-6)
This warning is again underscored later by Paul using an almost identical analogy in Romans 11:19-22
"Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in. Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: For if God spared not the natural branches, [take heed] lest He also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in [His] goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off."
The context here makes it extremely clear that the vine spoken of is salvation in Christ. This is one of several places where the condition to salvation is stated. Salvation and eternal life are the rule for those who have believed, apostasy (falling away, rejection of the covenant) is the exception to that rule. So addressing John 10, the sheep who follow Christ as a rule will never perish. While the subject of apostasy isn't brought up in this analogy, if a sheep were to cease following Christ, he would no longer have eternal life, as he would be no longer a trusting sheep or ingrafted shoot, but cut off and burned as a rejected branch. Insist as one may about 'never perishing' or 'never thirsting,' the Israelites who rebelled did indeed drink and yet do now thirst as a result of their disobedience. What most Calvinists miss is the fact that exceptions clarify rules, rules don't negate exceptions. So it is not a contradiction for God to state to Israel,
Be strong and of a good courage, fear not, nor be afraid of them: for the LORD thy God, he [it is] that doth go with thee; he will not fail thee, nor forsake thee. (Deuteronomy 31:8),
and then state a few verses later,
Then my anger shall be kindled against them in that day, and I will forsake them, and I will hide my face from them, and they shall be devoured, and many evils and troubles shall befall them; so that they will say in that day, Are not these evils come upon us, because our God [is] not among us? (Deuteronomy 31:17)
As can be clearly seen, the blessings of God's covenant promises have been and still are condioned on continued faith in Him. God never did forsake Israel and fulfilled the covenant promises as long as they followed Him, but left them to their enemies and sentenced many of them to eternal condemnation when they rebelled, for only those with faith and patience will inherit the promises (Hebrews 6:12).
What about being plucked out of God's hand? If you look closely at John 15 and Romans 11, you will see that if one does not abide, no one snatches them away from God, Christ does not cast them out and they don't even separate themselves, but rather God the Father cuts them off.
The last issue is that of the wording 'eternal life.' Many have taken this as a sure sign that once it is received, that it can never be lost because it is eternal. This is simply a misunderstanding as to what eternal life is, for eternal life is not a 'what,' but a 'who.' Eternal life is knowing Jesus Christ (John 17:3), for in Him is life (John 1:4), He is the way, truth and life (John 14:6), He is our life that shall appear (Colossians 3:4). If there is one who is separated from Him, that eternal life continues in Christ, its source; but the one cut off dies as he is no longer grafted into the source of that life.
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