Dialogue on Hebrews 4:9-11
August 9, 2007 Joshua Hitchcock posted a response to the challenge to reformed theology.
Josh starts with the objection that the word in the KJV for "unbelief" in verse 11 is better translated "disobedience" (its literal meaning is 'obstinacy'). The word can be used to express general disobedience (Ephesians 2:2), or to express disobedience inclusively with unbelief (Romans 11:30-32). However, this particular objection is neither here nor there as disobedient actions stem from faithlessness, the two going hand-in-hand, and the Israelites who fell were guilty of both (Deuteronomy 9:16, 32:20), so what translation you read here is not an issue. The real issue is that the warning given is against failing to enter into God's rest, which is clearly eternal life.
Josh doesn't end with this objection, he notes that the word for 'fall' is not the same word for 'lose' or 'apostize,' and concludes that the passage isn't actually talking about the possibility of anyone losing anything, and concludes that it actually means,
"We must be diligent to enter into the rest, that heavenly rest, to the life in which we are called, so that we do not fall into disobedience, so that we do not fall into sin. If we are not diligently pursuing a holy lifestyle, a live worthy of our calling, we will quickly fall into sin."
The problem with his explanation and defense of eternal security is that it doesn't fit the context of the entire passage, for what does falling into that example of disobedience entail? What happened to the Israelites who fell? The preceding verses tell us plainly (I'll quote from the NIV this time to clear up any ambiguity),
"And with whom was he angry for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies fell in the desert? And to whom did God swear that they would never enter his rest if not to those who disobeyed [or disbelieved]? So we see that they were not able to enter, because of their unbelief. Therefore, since the promise of entering his rest still stands, let us be careful that none of you be found to have fallen short of it. For we also have had the gospel preached to us, just as they did; but the message they heard was of no value to them, because those who heard did not combine it with faith." (Hebrews 3:17-4:2 NIV)
Notice the example given, the Israelites to whom the promise was given acted faithlessly and fell into disobedience, the penalty of such being that God swore that they who rebelled would never enter into His rest. Their fall entailed not only disobedience, but rejection, and they were denied entrance not only into the land of Canaan, but the true rest that God offered as well. This is why the warning in verse 11 tells us to be diligent to enter into His rest, for if we don't, we will fall after the same example of disobedience as most of the Israelites did and not be allowed to enter.
-------
August 12, 2007 - Joshua Hitchcock finishes his comments on Hebrews 4. He states,
However, the text does not mention that the Israelites were ever believers in the first place. In order for Joshua to prove his point, he would have to prove, somehow, that the Israelites in view, actually had saving faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, and then renounced their faith prior to potentially entering into the rest that was promised. However, the text nowhere tells us that this is the case. However, Joshua again reads this into the text, on the basis of his unwarranted presuppositions.
Actually, all I have to do is prove that the Israelites who fell did not enter God's eternal rest. Let's see what God has to say on the subject:
Harden not your heart, as in the provocation, [and] as [in] the day of temptation in the wilderness: When your fathers tempted Me, proved Me, and saw My work. Forty years long was I grieved with [this] generation, and said, It [is] a people that do err in their heart, and they have not known My ways: Unto whom I sware in my wrath that they should not enter into my rest. (Psalm 95:8-11)
He was not speaking about only the promised land, but the true eternal rest He gives, which we who believe are entering into,
For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. (Hebrews 4:3)
Israel in the desert was our example (1 Corinthians 10:11), so we are therefore warned,
Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief. (Hebrews 4:11)
That perverse generation of Israelites fell short of God's eternal rest when they fell into faithlessness and disobedience, and so we are warned to be diligent to enter His rest lest we fall in like manner. 'Nuff said.
-------
August 9, 2007 - "Flash" Gordan Runyan shoots out a rebuttal to the second part of the challenge quick as lightning. He correctly states about the makeup of churches,
"Until Christ returns, the Churches on earth will be populated by those who profess Christ in something other than a saving manner, right alongside those who are the elect, and cling to the Gospel with truly saving faith."
But then goes a little off in making this assertion concerning the challenge,
"There is no mix of saved and unsaved to be admitted. That is the only way this portion of the Challenge can stand. The author of Hebrews had to have been addressing a crowd that was uniform in its makeup, either all fully redeemed in Christ, or all in the same leaky boat, struggling to hopefully be saved at some point down the line."
And concludes,
"So, when we address the Church in a sermon or a letter, we know that our words will be heard both by the elect of God, and (most likely) by false professors of religion, who will go on to prove their false faith by eventually falling away.
So, when the author of Hebrews warns against falling away, that’s the sort of Church he is addressing--there is no other kind of Church on earth! The warning is thus very real and immediate, and speaks of a genuine danger for some in the assembly; but, it also serves to urge the elect of God to continue to believe, and to work out their salvation with fear and trembling while they journey here. It urges them to persevere."
There is doubtless a mixture of saved and unsaved within the church, and the issue of inclusion is relevant, but it is not the issue of the inclusion of unbelievers, but of believers; for if this warning with its consequence is applicable to even one believer, then Calvinism has hit a kink. Is this passage specifically addressing the saved? The unsaved? All together? The context sheds a little light on the issue. First off, in verse 3 it is written, "For we which have believed do enter into rest, as He said...," excluding those who do not believe. Now a Calvinist might insist that the only ones who are in real danger of falling away are false professors who believe only for a time. But read further, after warning against falling in like manner that the Israelites did, the author then notes in verses 11-13 that the word of God is living and powerful and that nothing can be hidden from Him before continuing in his exhortation for perseverance,
"Seeing then that we have a great High Priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the son of God, let us hold fast our profession. For we have not an High Priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need." (Hebrews 4:14-16)
Few observations here: This continuance of the author's exhortation not only urges those he is addressing to hold fast their profession, but says that they have a High Priest. According to the Calvinist doctrine of Limited Atonement, Christ only died for the elect, leaving all others with not even a real possibility of having a heavenly High Priest as the elect do. Since they have such a High Priest and have a profession of faith to hold to, there is only one conclusion I can draw: Despite whoever else may have heard or read the admonition here, it is specifically addressing the redeemed, and telling them to be diligent to enter God's rest and not fall into disobedience and unbelief as many in Israel did (as nothing can be hidden from God), hence we must continue in the faith and should seek God's grace to help us persevere.
Oh, and for the record, I do understand the difference between typical OSAS and Perseverance of the Saints, and do actually hold respect for the majority of Calvinists who do not buy into the antinomian heresy that seems popular among many Baptists in the south, but the core meaning which the challenge addresses, "a true believer can never fall into perdition" is a logical subset of the fifth petal on the TULIP.
Copyright © 2005-2007, InDeathorLife.org
The information on this page may not be reproduced or republished on another website, webpage or other printed media without express permission from the author of this site. Other material(s) referenced on this site are the property of their respective authors or copyright holders, and where applicable are used by permission.