My Correspondence With a Monergist Theologian: His Web Article and My Response
The reply that reformationtheology.com does not want you to see
Here is the public response that the guy I wrote to posted on the site reformationtheology.com. I retrieved it from http://www.reformationtheology.com/2006/10/question_on_perseverance.php. I tried to post my response in the comments on November 15, 2006, but I the site administrator must approve all comments, and after waiting on them for a week, I get the feeling that they feel the exactly the same way about opposing views as those attending the Synod of Dordt did. So for your reading pleasure, here is his response as well as my rebuttal. Quotes from a prior post are in italics, my comments are in green.
Response:
The main issue is the fact that God gives many commands in Scripture, all of which we have the inability to carry out apart from Christ. But, thanks be to God, Christ does for us what we are unable to do for ourselves. The purpose of the Law and warnings is not to show our natural ability but rather our inability (Rom 3:19, 20). "through the law we become conscious of sin", Which makes us flee to Christ. So when God commands us to persevere to the end, He is not telling us to look to our own resources to get there, but rather that we look to Christ, who alone is sufficient to fully save.
The error in question in Revelation 22:19 is to disbelieve the Scriptures by either adding to them or subtracting from them. That is, to disbelieve the very Christ who saves you. When we add or take away from the Scripture we are in effect saying that we do not like this particular God as He has revealed himself to me, so anyone who does this does not believe the Christ of Scripture to begin with. He believes in a false Christ. We should take heed for doing such a thing would reveal the true nature of our heart: unregenerate.
Rev 22:18-19 "I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book, 19and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book."
The passage warning is directed to "ANYONE". Jesus, in the previous text (v 17) says
"The Spirit and the Bride say, "Come." And let the one who hears say, "Come." And let the one who is thirsty come; let the one who desires take the water of life without price."
..so the idea is that this command is open to anyone. But again, no one naturally submits to the humbling terms of the gospel. God's command to "come" does not mean we all have the ability to do so. John Owen once said: "To suppose that whatever God requireth of us that we have power of ourselves to do, is to make the cross and grace of Jesus Christ of none effect." And as we all know, the "book of life" idea is an anthropomorphism. God is not ignorant of who will be in that book whether you are a Calvinist or an Arminian. He knows who will be redeemed even before He creates us. The emphasis is not, therefore, on something God changes His mind about, but a sober warning to anyone who would change or distort His revelation, which is idolatry, since it makes God into something He is not.
Remember, God gave the tree of life in the garden of Eden when man was unfallen. The fact that man has fallen and is unable to take of the tree does not change God's command. God commands us to be perfect and take of the tree of life, even though an angel is blocking the way to it. The problem, however, is not with the law, but with us. God's standard remains the same and He does not lower his standard of holiness simply because we are unable to fulfil it. But in mercy He does for us what we are unable to do for ourselves, that is, obey the law completely and perfectly. Jesus, in this way, fulfilled the law and grants eternal life to all who are trusting in Him. But the law and God's moral standard remains. So you will often see God command things that we are unable to do (such as the Ten commandments). Thus the need for Christ.
The Scripture indeed teaches that we MUST persevere to the end ... In this you and I fully agree (John 15:1-15). But that is only half the equation. It also clearly teaches that God will preserve us to the end (John 15:16). Look at John 15:16 carefully " You have not chosen me but I have chosen you AND APPOINTED YOU TO BEAR FRUIT, FRUIT THAT WILL LAST." I would also encourage you to take the time to read the following short piece by Greg Johnson on this very issue: Can a Christian Lose His or Her Salvation?. An interesting story related to this is that I was recently debating with a guy who believed Christians were sinless and could lose salvation if they sinned. In my email I copied and pasted some of the tables in the above essay but failed to mention that it was Greg Johnsons' table. I just quickly wanted to get my point across rather than rewriting it. But the guy found the table online and said I was taking credit for someone elses' work. I thought it ironic he would say this since those who believe they can lose their salvation if we do not maintain sinlessness, are, in effect, taking credit for someone elses work, Christ's.
Next, I think it is VERY important to consider something in light of perseverance of the saints. Consider that if a person can actually lose their salvation, as you seem to be claiming, then it is tantamount to asserting that what Jesus did for us in His life and death is NOT SUFFICIENT to save us. That his once for all sacrifice is not enough to save us completely. So, if we begin by the Spirit but you claim we must complete our journey to heaven by the flesh, then do we not commit the Galatian heresy? Consider, your position is that CHRISTIANS MUST MAINTAIN THEIR OWN JUSTIFICATION BEFORE GOD. If you think Jesus saves us but afterward it is entirely up to us ... That Christ kick starts us but we must be good enough to deserve heaven thereafter, the logical conclusion to this would be that Jesus, when he prayed that God would preserve his own, actually failed. That His prayer in John 17 was ineffectual for his people. Can the prayer of Jesus fail? Furthermore we would be basing our justification on our sanctification, rather than Christ?
Is not the idea that our good works contribute to the price of our redemption a Roman catholic error? Isn't that why we left the RCC at the Reformation because they believed that what Jesus did for us was not enough and that we must church out good works to maintain our just standing before God? How is your position any different than this?
Don't get me wrong, we also affirm that God's people must persevere in obedience and faith to the end. The question is, does this spring from God's grace as a child of the covenant or is it a matter of the natural will. If you say "both" then I must ask you, why does one man persevere to the end and not the other? What makes the two persons to differ? grace? No, not to you because both had grace. So it must have been something in the flesh that made one to differ. One either had more virtue, tenacity, moral fortitude etc. Your answer, in other words, is found outside of Jesus Christ. Christ either saves us completely or He does not save us at all. For if you were to trust in your own ability to persevere or continually love God with all your heart, soul, mind and your neighbor as yourself, then none would have hope. We would all perish. What kind of a Gospel is that? It is not the gospel but the same heresy that Paul warned against in Galatians. "Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?" Some warned Paul that if He preached salvation by grace alone in Christ alone it would be a licence for immorality. In Romans 6 it says shall we continue sin that grace might increase???
The essence of it is, either we are saved by grace alone in Christ alone, or the alternative is that we must pay PART OF the price of our redemption. Does Christ save us UNTO good works, or are we saved because we trust partly in Christ and partly in our good works?
It is very dangerous to believe that Christians can lose their salvation because this belief does not put Christ at the center of your faith. Is Christ sufficient to save you or not?
True believers are not condemned when they sin, but if they do not admit sin, God will discipline them so they will not be condemned with unbelievers:
31But if we judged ourselves truly, we would not be judged. 32But when we are judged by the Lord, we are disciplined so that we may not be condemned along with the world.
- 1 Corinthians 11:31-33 (English Standard Version)
October 26, 2006
A bit of a revision to his first email response. I replied
Dear Mr. ________,
He edited my name out on his post, and out of respect, I edit out his on mine; where he chooses to put his own name is his business
As the original author of the letter, I feel it only fair that I respond to your statements.
1. It was never argued in the question as to whether men could keep the law of God in their own strength, for apart from Christ we can do nothing (John 15:5).
2. The fact that men naturally do not have the ability to follow the gospel does not touch the point of the question, as it clearly relates to the regenerate (who else would have a share in the holy city?).
3. On what basis do you judge this warning to be an anthropomorphism? God knowing the future from eternity past is no bar to Him performing an act in the present or future.
(Kind of silly trying to logically deduce what God will and won't do when so much that He does, according to them, is a mystery. Don't you think?)
4. The fact that God works to preverve us to the end does not preclude the possibility of someone abandoning Him. (1 Timothy 4:1) A person being appointed to salvation does not mean that there is no danger of apostasy.
"Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall..." 2 Peter 1:10
5. As to, "Consider that if a person can actually lose their salvation, as you seem to be claiming, then it is tantamount to asserting that what Jesus did for us in His life and death is NOT SUFFICIENT to save us," Of course it is sufficient to save us. God simply requires that we follow Him. It's not by the power of our flesh, but by the Holy Spirit that dwells in us (2 Timothy 1:14).
6. "Consider, your position is that CHRISTIANS MUST MAINTAIN THEIR OWN JUSTIFICATION BEFORE GOD."
No, just faith (Acts 14:22).
7. "If you think Jesus saves us but afterward it is entirely up to us..."
When did 'entirely up to us' enter this discussion? That's Pelagianism.
8. "That Christ kick starts us but we must be good enough to deserve heaven thereafter, the logical conclusion to this would be that Jesus, when he prayed that God would preserve his own, actually failed."
Nonsense. God does preserve His own by His power through faith (1 Peter 1:5), which men have been known to cast off.
"Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck" 1 Timothy 1:19
9. "Furthermore we would be basing our justification on our sanctification, rather than Christ?" Justification and sanctification are both rooted in faith, I don't recall sanctification even being an issue here.
(classical Calvinist straw-man, unequivocally useless)
10. "Is not the idea that our good works contribute to the price of our redemption a Roman catholic error?
(I address this unfounded assumption below. This is another error in understanding that Calvinists are often guilty of; they can get very technical about fine points of doctrine, but play dumb when you distinguish a condition to receiving salvation from paying the price for it)
Isn't that why we left the RCC at the Reformation because they believed that what Jesus did for us was not enough and that we must church out good works to maintain our just standing before God? How is your position any different than this?"
You're only assuming that I am a classical Protestant (I'm non-denominational). Since when did good works become an issue? I believe that a person must maintain faith and a good conscience before God (see 1 Timothy 1:19, above); and that if someone were to commit a vile act such as the one warned against in Revelation 22:19, then it would indicate that he had rejected the faith, for sin proceeds from the heart (Matthew 15:19). Just because one is Catholic does not make their position completely wrong; Oneness Pentacostals often compare Protestants to Catholics, claiming that the Trinity is a Catholic doctrine, and thus using the RCC as a tarbrush to smear all other trinitarian churches. Likewise, salvation conditioned on remaining in Christ is a doctrine that is both historically and biblically sound
(I mention historically, since the 'vital truth' of 'once saved, always saved' was mysteriously hidden from the church for a millenium and a half, and finds no place in Christian writing prior to John Calvin)
.
11. "The question is, does this spring from God's grace as a child of the covenant or is it a matter of the natural will. If you say "both" then I must ask you, why does one man persevere to the end and not the other? What makes the two persons to differ? grace? No, not to you because both had grace. So it must have been something in the flesh that made one to differ. One either had more virtue, tenacity, moral fortitude etc. Your answer, in other words, is found outside of Jesus Christ."
Taking 1 Corinthins 4:7 out of context, for God's grace makes us differ from the world; yet with the same grace, many Christians still differ from one another. God gives a way of escape for every temptation (1 Corinthians 10:13), yet some resist and some do not. Why do they differ? If God gave them both a way of escape, then by your logic, they would both have to perform in exactly the same way every time. Your mistaken assumption is that those in Christ do not have a free will to do either good or evil.
12. "Christ either saves us completely or He does not save us at all."
(a 'slippery slope' argument that changes the meaning of a key term: paying the price for salvation -- which is what Christ did -- is not synonymous with enduring to the end)
I don't recall arguing that Christ did not save to the utmost. That has nothing to do with the possibility of apostasy, which is by definition falling from salvation and forfeiting eternal life.
13. "For if you were to trust in your own ability to persevere or continually love God with all your heart, soul, mind and your neighbor as yourself, then none would have hope. We would all perish."
That's why God has engrafted His word in our hearts (James 1:21), given us His grace (Titus 2:11) as well as the Holy Spirit (1 Corinthians 2:12).
14. "What kind of a Gospel is that?"
The one in the Bible.
"I am the vine, ye [are] the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast [them] into the fire, and they are burned."
John 15:5-6
15. "It is not the gospel but the same heresy that Paul warned against in Galatians. 'Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?'"
(Grasping at straws, as they know quite well that even full Arminians acknowledge that one can endure only by God's grace)
Incorrect. As I have stated repeatedly to you personally, I do not believe that a man by his own will can obey the word of God; apart from the grace of God he can do nothing good. How is that being 'perfected in the flesh'?
16. "The essence of it is, either we are saved by grace alone in Christ alone, or the alternative is that we must pay PART OF the price of our redemption."
(same errant logic as before)
Perseverance and continued faith in Christ pays NO part of the price of redemption. It is a condition, not a merit, qualification, or partial payment.
17. "Does Christ save us UNTO good works, or are we saved because we trust partly in Christ and partly in our good works?"
(When you tell them that you must trust in Christ to be saved, they usually start chasing their tails by saying that you are trusting in trust. What they miss is that we do not believe it is our trust itself that has redeemed us. Trust alone without God's grace and Christ's sacrifice is nothing; it's only by trust in His sacrifice that we can be saved, therefore trust is the condition to salvation, not the substance of it. It's sad, sad system of theology where one has to spell such things out...)
We are saved by trusting in Christ, which comes to my point that if a person stops trusting in Christ, then he will fall away.
18. "It is very dangerous to believe that Christians can lose their salvation because this belief does not put Christ at the center of your faith."
(an equally classical, and equally useless distraction that is equally easy to defeat)
How is that? If I believe that we must continue to abide in Christ to be saved, then how is that not Christ-centered?
19. "Is Christ sufficient to save you or not?"
Yes. Were you replying to another letter perhaps? I never argued that point.
(talk about loaded questions; he's confusing the sufficiency of Christ's sacrifice to atone for our sins with the fulfillment of the condition of remaining in Him; Christ's sacrifice is the propitiation sufficient to save all who believe in Him, not some overwhelming impetus that compels us to endure)
20. "True believers are not condemned when they sin, but if they do not admit sin, God will discipline them so they will not be condemned with unbelievers:
31But if we judged ourselves truly, we would not be judged. 32But when we are judged by the Lord, we are disciplined so that we may not be condemned along with the world.
- 1 Corinthians 11:31-33 (English Standard Version)"
But if one departs from God, then he will be condemned for his sins. God's forgiveness is conditional as well, remember the unforgiving servant from Matthew 18, and the Lord's exhortation:
"For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses."
Matthew 6:14-15
The point remains that the consequence of the sin mentioned in Revelation 22:19 is that one's part in the kingdom of God will be revoked. If the 'perseverance of the saints' doctrine you promote is an essential element of the true gospel, and conditional security is the Galatian heresy, then why would God give a warning that clearly indicates that it is possible to forfeit one's salvation?
November 15, 2006
Rather unimpressive display. The same recycled trick questions, overismplified slippery-slope ultimatums, and misconceptions that Calvinists have been propagating for centuries. It's no wonder that reformationtheology.com won't post a halfway intelligent rebuttal, for the errant thinking in such persuasion is easy to expose. Sadly, the author of the above article is one of the more intelligent and objective Calvinists I have discussed theology with to date; most don't come close to the level of even what he wrote. To the author's credit, he has shown much Christ-likeness in not being in the habit of calling Arminians/Synergists heretics or unsaved. God be praised for a spirit of unity even despite secondary doctrinal differences. Nonetheless, as can be verified from both past and present, the Calvinist/Monergist mindset and teachings in general do tend to breed heavy intolerance for those who hold the biblical and historical Christian doctrine of Synergism. While not a damnable heresy such as Antinomianism, the Calvinist doctrine is an error that will almost invariably lead to division between the theologically tradition-bound Reformationists and members of the church who derive their doctrine solely from the word of God.
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