The Eternal Security Debate With Independent Baptist Debater Kent Brandenburg, Part 5
Mr. Brandenburg responded again on August 29, 2007 (he sure works fast when he wants to):
I'm going to answer this in bold, small letters in order to differentiate again.
Dear Kent,
SO YOU ARE SAYING THAT PRESENTLY SAVED PEOPLE ARE ALREADY IN POSSESSION OF THE
HOLY CITY AND THE THINGS WRITTEN IN THE BOOK. THAT'S WHAT YOU ARE CONCLUDING
BASED UPON THIS "UNFORGIVEABLE SIN" ARGUMENT. YOU LOSE THIS WHOLE DEBATE RIGHT
AWAY.
As I stated in my email, "We who believe do possess the blessings associated
with eternal life already in the sense that they are reserved for us." As the
father in the parable of the prodigal son spoke to the faithful brother, "Son,
thou art ever with me, and all that I have is thine." (Luke 15:31) indicating
that he had an inheritance reserved for him that had not yet passed to him.
Your example in Luke 15 doesn't work. You have to read into that text in order to have it work. He says that it "is thine," present tense. He wasn't saying to the faithful brother that he would get it, future, but it is his right at that moment. Your example has absolutely no parallel with the Revelation passage. In the Revelation passage, "shall take away," is future tense. The person who presently (present subjunctive) adds or takes away from Scripture in the future God "shall take away" (future indicative) his part. Why does he take away his part then? Because that is when God judges the lost is at the Great White Throne Judgment, which is future; therefore, it speaks of potential. Why? Because the person reading that, who is possibly lost (subjunctive mode), because he is present tense, habitually adding or taking away, will in the future not have his part, if he is not converted. Whoever is living and hearing what he is saying can effect a change in his future destiny. That is clear when you look at the call in v. 17 to the lost to come for the water of life.
FIRST, YOU WOULD HAVE TO SHOW THAT SAVED PEOPLE ARE PRESENTLY INHABITING THE NEW JERUSALEM.
No, simply that some presently have a part in it, albeit not having arrived yet.
I answer this above. You're wrong.
SECOND, THE VERB IN "SHALL TAKE AWAY FROM THE WORDS" IS PRESENT TENSE,
THEREFORE, CONTINUOUS ACTION. WHOEVER AS A PRACTICE CORRUPTS GOD'S WORD IS NOT A
CHRISTIAN.
I agree. But I do believe that it is possible for one who was once saved to
become a non-Christian (apostate). No verse in Scripture says a person can lose his salvation, once he has it.
WE KNOW THAT THOSE WHO SIN AS A LIFESTYLE ARE NOT SAVED (1 JOHN 2:3, 4; 3:6-9, ALSO PRESENT TENSE VERBS). REV. 22:19 REINFORCES THAT. SAVED PEOPLE HAVE A NEW NATURE WHERE SIN NO LONGER HAS DOMINION OVER THEM (ROM. 6:12, 14). PEOPLE WHO DELIBERATELY AND HABITUALLY ALTER GOD'S WORDS DO NOT MANIFEST THE FRUIT OF SALVATION IN THEIR LIVES. THIRD, EVERY LOST PERSON WILL HAVE DIED BEFORE THE GREAT WHITE THRONE JUDGMENT, SO EVERY PERSON WHO IS LOST HAS ALREADY FORFEITED HIS PART IN THE BOOK AND IN THE HOLY CITY. THEREFORE, EVERY LOST PERSON IS IN PROSPECT TO THIS MOMENT. FOURTH, ALL LOST PEOPLE LOSE THEIR POTENTIAL FOR GLORY WHEN THEY DIE. AND EVERY LOST PERSON WILL HAVE DIED BEFORE THE GREAT WHITE THRONE JUDGMENT.
It does not say 'potential' or 'prospective,' it says 'his part,' which indicates that the person spoken of in some sense does possess the thing. To prove that it is speaking strictly of unbelievers, you would have to show that unbelievers in some way possess a part in this eternal inheritance, which they do not as Ephesians 5:5 plainly states. For one to have a part in a thing, it
must be more than a possibility that he can acquire it, for a sinner such as is described in Ephesians 5 who repents and believes on Christ can indeed acquire a share in the inheritance of the saints (Colossians 1:12); so he has potential, yes, but does not possess it in any sense until he believes, since it is only reserved for those who love God.
It doesn't say that he possesses it. You have to read this into the text. It isn't in there. We get our doctrine from what Scripture says, not from silence.
THESE PEOPLE NEVER HAD BELIEVED. THE TEXT DOESN'T SAY THEY HAD BELIEVED. IT DOESN'T SAY THAT THEIR NAMES WERE IN THE BOOK OF LIFE.
Nor, as I pointed out above, is any term like 'prospective' used. I derived the fact that those who have any right to the holy city also have their names in the Lamb's book of life directly from Revelation 21:27.
No term "prospective" is used, but the verbs indicate prospective in their tense. You would know that if you understood the language in which the NT was written.
"And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither [whatsoever] worketh abomination, or [maketh] a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life."
IF YOU CAN LOSE YOUR SALVATION, THEN WHO IS DOING THE SAVING? YOU ARE. THIS MIXTURE OF WORKS WITH GRACE, NULLIFIES GRACE, AND THE WORK OF CHRIST IS MADE OF NO EFFECT UNTO YOU.
I don't think you understand what conditional security is. Salvation is by abiding in Christ, as John 15 states, not by works. Just as good works are the fruit of salvation, so likewise sin is the fruit of depravity and hard-heartedness. If 'not doing bad stuff' could save us, then there would be no need for Christ, but our works cannot save us, for they've already killed us. The only source of life then is remaining in Christ, as is written in Romans 11:18-22,
Remaining in Christ is a work. If it is dependent up on us to remain, then it is based on our efforts. Believers will remain. Those who do not remain were never believers in the first place.
"Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee. Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in. Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: For if God spared not the natural branches, [take heed] lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the
goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in [his] goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off."
This is a metaphor that you are taking way too far. Unbelieving Israel was broken off because she would not believe. Notice that only those who continue will be saved. Those who do not continue were never saved in the first place.
Again, no place in Scripture says someone loses his salvation. The Bible definitively says that people who do not continue were never saved in the first place. Read 1 John 2:19 and 3:6. That is the truth of Scripture. You are reading into these texts.
Kent Brandenburg
I answered on August 30, 2007,
Dear Kent,
Your example in Luke 15 doesn't work. You have to read into that text in order to have it work. He says that it "is thine," present tense. He wasn't saying to the faithful brother that he would get it, future, but it is his right at that moment. Your example has absolutely no parallel with the Revelation passage.
Untrue, for it was the father that ordered the things to celebrate the arrival of his prodigal son. If it had been strictly in the brother's power, he could have simply refused or disallowed it; it would also make little sense for him to complain that he'd never even been given a young goat to feast with his friends (vs 29) if he had already been given his father's entire estate. The idiom his father used referred to the fact that his inheritance was reserved for and would pass to his son in the proper time.
In the Revelation passage, "shall take away," is future tense. The person who presently (present subjunctive) adds or takes away from Scripture in the future God "shall take away" (future indicative) his part. Why does he take away his part then? Because that is when God judges the lost is at the Great White Throne Judgment, which is future; therefore, it speaks of potential. Why? Because the person reading that, who is possibly lost (subjunctive mode), because he is present tense, habitually adding or taking away, will in the future not have his part, if he is not converted. Whoever is living and hearing what he is saying can effect a change in his future destiny. That is clear when you look at the call in v. 17 to the lost to come for the water of life.
Something that is presently possessed can be taken away at a future time.
"For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away[future indicative] even that he hath [present indicative]." (Matthew 13:12)
"Again, no place in Scripture says someone loses his salvation. The Bible definitively says that people who do not continue were never saved in the first place. Read 1 John 2:19 and 3:6. That is the truth of Scripture. You are reading into these texts."
1 John 3:6 highlights a basic difference between one who has repented and knows God and one who has not. It does not address the issue of apostasy which scriptures such as the cites from Romans and Revelation do. John writes with similar contrast between the righteous and unrighteous:
"Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God. He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love." (1 John 4:7-8)
Yet it is also written,
"And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold." (Matthew
24:12)
If John were saying that it's impossible for a believer to fall into sin, there would be no need to warn against it at the beginning of the prior chapter, or for Hebrews 3:13 to caution us against being hardened by its deceitfulness.
As far as John 2:19, I'm not sure how the presence of some false professors leaving the church is supposed to negate the possibility of apostasy for a believer.
"This is a metaphor that you are taking way too far. Unbelieving Israel was broken off because she would not believe. Notice that only those who continue will be saved. Those who do not continue were never saved in the first place."
He is speaking to those who were grafted into the vine contrary to nature -Gentiles (vs 17), who stand by faith (vs 20), but warning them that if they did not remain that they will be cut off (vs 22).
"Remaining in Christ is a work. If it is dependent up on us to remain, then it is based on our efforts. Believers will remain. Those who do not remain were never believers in the first place."
Incorrect, remaining in Christ is by faith (Romans 11:20), unless you're arguing that faith is a work.
I wrote:
"It does not say 'potential' or 'prospective,' it says 'his part,' which indicates that the person spoken of in some sense does possess the thing. To prove that it is speaking strictly of unbelievers, you would have to show that unbelievers in some way possess a part in this eternal inheritance, which they do not as Ephesians 5:5 plainly states. For one to have a part in a thing, it
must be more than a possibility that he can acquire it, for a sinner such as is described in Ephesians 5 who repents and believes on Christ can indeed acquire a share in the inheritance of the saints (Colossians 1:12); so he has potential, yes, but does not possess it in any sense until he believes, since it is only reserved for those who love God."
[to which Kent responded]
"It doesn't say that he possesses it. You have to read this into the text. It
isn't in there. We get our doctrine from what Scripture says, not from silence."
The fact that it is a thing possessed (albeit as an inheritance) is implicit in the text, for there would be nothing to take away were it not possessed. This can only apply to believers since unbelievers have no inheritance in the kingdom of God (as stated in Ephesians 5:5). We do possess it by the fact that God has prepared it for Abraham and his seed,
"And truly, if they had been mindful of that [country] from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned. But now they desire a better [country], that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for He hath prepared for them a city." (Hebrews 11:16)
"In my Father's house are many mansions: if [it were] not [so], I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, [there] ye may be also." (John 14:2-3)
Our citizenship is also there:
"For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ..." (Philippians 3:20)
"But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all."
(Galatians 4:26)
It is also part of our inheritance as believers (1 Peter 1:4, already cited), of which it plainly states,
"In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to
the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will..." (Ephesians 1:11)
So it is not eisegetical to say that believers do now possess the heavenly inheritance in that it is reserved for us.
In Christ,
J.C. Thibodaux
P.S. I don't publish private emails without consent, if you feel that your defense of eternal security is adequate, would you like this discourse printed on that page? If not, no biggie; if so, you are of course free to publish my comments as well.
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