The Eternal Security Debate With Independent Baptist Debater Kent Brandenburg, Part 4
Kent's reply was sent on the same day (August 29, 2007); of note as he points out later, his use of all caps is not shouting, he's distinguishing his remarks from mine:
Hello again Mr. Brandenburg,
Okay, for starters,
"The "part" in Revelation 22:19 is prospective, not possessive."
and
"Nobody currently on earth is already in possession of "the holy city" and "the
things which are written in this book.""
Actually, if only a prospective or potential part were taken away, then this
would effectively make detracting from God's word the unforgivable sin, since
even the sinner's potential share in glory is now taken; therefore this can't be
speaking strictly of prospect.
SO YOU ARE SAYING THAT PRESENTLY SAVED PEOPLE ARE ALREADY IN POSSESSION OF THE HOLY CITY AND THE THINGS WRITTEN IN THE BOOK. THAT'S WHAT YOU ARE CONCLUDING BASED UPON THIS "UNFORGIVEABLE SIN" ARGUMENT. YOU LOSE THIS WHOLE DEBATE RIGHT AWAY. YOU SHOULD LOVINGLY REJOICE IN AND SUBMIT TO THE TRUTH. FIRST, YOU WOULD HAVE TO SHOW THAT SAVED PEOPLE ARE PRESENTLY INHABITING THE NEW JERUSALEM. WE KNOW THAT NO ONE IS, SO YOU CAN'T SHOW THAT. SECOND, THE VERB IN "SHALL TAKE AWAY FROM THE WORDS" IS PRESENT TENSE, THEREFORE, CONTINUOUS ACTION. WHOEVER AS A PRACTICE CORRUPTS GOD'S WORD IS NOT A CHRISTIAN. WE KNOW THAT THOSE WHO SIN AS A LIFESTYLE ARE NOT SAVED (1 JOHN 2:3, 4; 3:6-9, ALSO PRESENT TENSE VERBS). REV. 22:19 REINFORCES THAT. SAVED PEOPLE HAVE A NEW NATURE WHERE SIN NO LONGER HAS DOMINION OVER THEM (ROM. 6:12, 14). PEOPLE WHO DELIBERATELY AND HABITUALLY ALTER GOD'S WORDS DO NOT MANIFEST THE FRUIT OF SALVATION IN THEIR LIVES. THIRD, EVERY LOST PERSON WILL HAVE DIED BEFORE THE GREAT WHITE THRONE JUDGMENT, SO EVERY PERSON WHO IS LOST HAS ALREADY FORFEITED HIS PART IN THE BOOK AND IN THE HOLY CITY. THEREFORE, EVERY LOST PERSON IS IN PROSPECT TO THIS MOMENT. FOURTH, ALL LOST PEOPLE LOSE THEIR POTENTIAL FOR GLORY WHEN THEY DIE. AND EVERY LOST
PERSON WILL HAVE DIED BEFORE THE GREAT WHITE THRONE JUDGMENT.
saved' or trying to say that it is something only seemingly possessed are not
supported by the passage at all. We who believe do possess the blessings
associate with eternal life already in the sense that they are reserved for us;
they are more than merely possibility.
THESE PEOPLE NEVER HAD BELIEVED. THE TEXT DOESN'T SAY THEY HAD BELIEVED. IT DOESN'T SAY THAT THEIR NAMES WERE IN THE BOOK OF LIFE. PEOPLE WHO LIVE CHARACTERISTICALLY SINFUL LIVES, NEVER WERE SAVED IN THE FIRST PLACE
(SEE 1 JOHN 3:6 AND 1 JOHN 2:19). YOU ARE PUTTING THAT IN TO GET IT OUT. WE HAVE TO TAKE OUR DOCTRINE FROM SCRIPTURE. IF WE ARE NOT GOING TO DO THAT, THEN WE DO NOT HAVE A DEBATE.
Peter writes,
"Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to
his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection
of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled,
and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you..." (1 Peter 1:3-4)
Only those who follow Christ have any inheritance awaiting them in God's
kingdom, and hence we do "possess all things" (2 Corinthians 6:10) in the sense
that they are our future portion as believers. As for those who do not:
"For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man,
who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God."
(Ephesians 5:5)
Since sinners have no part in the godly inheritance, the only ones who have any
part in it at all are those whose names are in the Lamb's book of life.
"And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither
[whatsoever] worketh abomination, or [maketh] a lie: but they which are written
in the Lamb's book of life." (Revelation 21:27)
If one has any part in the holy city, then his name is in the book of life,
therefore; if one's part in the holy city is forfeit, then his name is no longer
in the Lamb's book of life. One's part would logically include one's name, so
there is no difficulty there.
THIS REALLY IS EVERYTHING FOR YOU. YOUR LOGIC. YOU SAY THAT ONE WOULD LOGICALLY INCLUDE A NAME IN THERE IF THE PART WAS IN THERE. YOU LOSE
AGAIN RIGHT THERE. YOU CAN'T LOGICALLY CONCLUDE THAT, BECAUSE TO DO SO, YOU WOULD HAVE TO ALSO PUT PEOPLE IN THE HOLY CITY. LET SCRIPTURE INTERPRET SCRIPTURE AND YOU WOULD BE BETTER OFF. STOP RELYING ON THE FALLACIOUS LOGIC.
IF YOU CAN LOSE YOUR SALVATION, THEN WHO IS DOING THE SAVING? YOU ARE. THIS MIXTURE OF WORKS WITH GRACE, NULLIFIES GRACE, AND THE WORK OF CHRIST IS MADE OF NO EFFECT UNTO YOU.
SINCERELY,
KENT BRANDENBURG
Ah, the old salvation by works canard. I responded on the same day:
Dear Kent,
SO YOU ARE SAYING THAT PRESENTLY SAVED PEOPLE ARE ALREADY IN POSSESSION OF THE HOLY CITY AND THE THINGS WRITTEN IN THE BOOK. THAT'S WHAT YOU ARE CONCLUDING BASED UPON THIS "UNFORGIVEABLE SIN" ARGUMENT. YOU LOSE THIS WHOLE DEBATE RIGHT AWAY.
As I stated in my email, "We who believe do possess the blessings associated with eternal life already in the sense that they are reserved for us." As the father in the parable of the prodigal son spoke to the faithful brother, "Son, thou art ever with me, and all that I have is thine." (Luke 15:31) indicating that he had an inheritance reserved for him that had not yet passed to him.
FIRST, YOU WOULD HAVE TO SHOW THAT SAVED PEOPLE ARE PRESENTLY INHABITING THE NEW JERUSALEM.
No, simply that some presently have a part in it, albeit not having arrived yet.
SECOND, THE VERB IN "SHALL TAKE AWAY FROM THE WORDS" IS PRESENT TENSE,
THEREFORE, CONTINUOUS ACTION. WHOEVER AS A PRACTICE CORRUPTS GOD'S WORD IS NOT A CHRISTIAN.
I agree. But I do believe that it is possible for one who was once saved to become a non-Christian (apostate).
WE KNOW THAT THOSE WHO SIN AS A LIFESTYLE ARE NOT SAVED (1 JOHN 2:3, 4; 3:6-9, ALSO PRESENT TENSE VERBS). REV. 22:19 REINFORCES THAT. SAVED PEOPLE HAVE A NEW NATURE WHERE SIN NO LONGER HAS DOMINION OVER THEM (ROM. 6:12, 14). PEOPLE WHO DELIBERATELY AND HABITUALLY ALTER GOD'S WORDS DO NOT MANIFEST THE FRUIT OF SALVATION IN THEIR LIVES. THIRD, EVERY LOST PERSON WILL HAVE DIED BEFORE THE GREAT WHITE THRONE JUDGMENT, SO EVERY PERSON WHO IS LOST HAS ALREADY FORFEITED HIS PART IN THE BOOK AND IN THE HOLY CITY. THEREFORE, EVERY LOST PERSON IS IN PROSPECT TO THIS MOMENT. FOURTH, ALL LOST PEOPLE LOSE THEIR POTENTIAL FOR GLORY WHEN THEY DIE. AND EVERY LOST PERSON WILL HAVE DIED BEFORE THE GREAT WHITE THRONE JUDGMENT.
It does not say 'potential' or 'prospective,' it says 'his part,' which indicates that the person spoken of in some sense does possess the thing. To prove that it is speaking strictly of unbelievers, you would have to show that unbelievers in some way possess a part in this eternal inheritance, which they do not as Ephesians 5:5 plainly states. For one to have a part in a thing, it
must be more than a possibility that he can acquire it, for a sinner such as is described in Ephesians 5 who repents and believes on Christ can indeed acquire a share in the inheritance of the saints (Colossians 1:12); so he has potential, yes, but does not possess it in any sense until he believes, since it is only reserved for those who love God.
THESE PEOPLE NEVER HAD BELIEVED. THE TEXT DOESN'T SAY THEY HAD BELIEVED. IT DOESN'T SAY THAT THEIR NAMES WERE IN THE BOOK OF LIFE.
Nor, as I pointed out above, is any term like 'prospective' used. I derived the fact that those who have any right to the holy city also have their names in the Lamb's book of life directly from Revelation 21:27.
"And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither
[whatsoever] worketh abomination, or [maketh] a lie: but they which are written
in the Lamb's book of life."
IF YOU CAN LOSE YOUR SALVATION, THEN WHO IS DOING THE SAVING? YOU ARE. THIS MIXTURE OF WORKS WITH GRACE, NULLIFIES GRACE, AND THE WORK OF CHRIST IS MADE OF NO EFFECT UNTO YOU.
I don't think you understand what conditional security is. Salvation is by abiding in Christ, as John 15 states, not by works. Just as good works are the fruit of salvation, so likewise sin is the fruit of depravity and hard-heartedness. If 'not doing bad stuff' could save us, then there would be no need for Christ, but our works cannot save us, for they've already killed us. The only source of life then is remaining in Christ, as is written in Romans 11:18-22,
"Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee. Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in. Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: For if God spared not the natural branches, [take heed] lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the
goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in [his] goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off."
In Christ,
J.C. Thibodaux
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